A Conversation with Eastern Shore Activist Amber Green

The following interview was conducted by Mitchell Program team member Chinyere Erondu with activist Amber Green on July 1, 2020.

(The below interview has been lightly edited for clarity.)

Chinyere Erondu: Thank you, Amber, for joining our conversation today, and I’m really excited for this time together. What we're going to be talking about today is more about your role in the work towards justice and especially in what is happening in our world climate right now. So, it's really, important that we're able to highlight our activists here in the DC/DMV area. And, if you may, introduce yourself, and tell us more about who you are.

Amber Green: I am a DC native. In 2008, I came to Salisbury, Maryland, or the Maryland Eastern Shore. I attended the University of Maryland Eastern Shore, and I've been out here ever since. I'm the Executive Director of a youth organization called Fenix Youth Project, where we encourage youth to use their creative talents to impact social change. I'm also involved in a lot of community organizations as well, like the Wicomico branch of the NAACP. I'm a member of the City of Salisbury Human Rights Advisory committee [and] the City of Salisbury Youth Development Advisory committee. I sit on the Chipman Foundation Board, which is the last African American building landmark in Salisbury, Maryland. So, I sit on that board, and I'm also just involved with a lot of the different grassroots movements that are happening on the Eastern Shore.

That doesn’t mean just Wicomico County or Salisbury—I’m also involved with a lot of work that is being done in Somerset and Princess Anne, as well as Pocomoke County. I'm just what you call a regular community organizer. I work a lot focusing on the Eastern Shore, which really, you know, has been my home base. My coming of age story, I would say, happened on the Eastern Shore, even though I always say I'm a D.C. native. From the womb to the tomb, I am D.C. (laughs) However, my coming of age story started in Salisbury.

CE: Wow. So, that is awesome. That's awesome. You’ve done a lot.

AG: Yeah. And I'm not even 30 yet. I'll be 30 in a few weeks.

CE: Happy early birthday!

AG: Thank you.

CE: Yeah, that's awesome. So, to build upon what you just said right now, I was able to look at the trailer of your documentary, The Sign, and learn more about what has happened here in Salisbury specifically. I want to know more about your thoughts about the historical marker of General Winder and how it [the sign] was removed. Combined with work that you do daily, what was it like as part of the process of having that sign removed and seeing that happen? What were your thoughts from that day?

AG: Well, that sign really has been, I would say, a statement of a background of my history for the past three years. I would say since 2000. Longer than that. I would say since early 2016 as an organization, we were always looking for a way to engage youth. And when we did engage youth, we realized there was a disconnect between them and their heritage. They didn't know their local history. They didn't know where they came from. And that's something that, to compare [and] contrast for me, I knew everything about where I came from—the D.C. legends, the D.C. native history.

So, I knew that a lot of youth out here didn't have that—they didn't have that home-grown feel. It's that pride of being from the Eastern Shore. And so, wanting to kind of get youth connected to their heritage, we uncovered a lot of things that the community would not talk about. Like, more specifically, in that place for the marker there was a lynching that occurred—two lynchings that occurred in that very spot. One of those lynchings pretty much kind of was the pinpoint, the start of everything wrong that starts to happen in Salisbury or in the Eastern Shore that really highlights the injustice in the area.

When we uncovered that truth and uncovered the story of that, we're realizing there's a Confederate marker in the very spot where this man was lynched. Then, as you're talking to elders and you're talking to the community members, you start to dig deeper, you start to realize why that sign—is there a purpose for that sign being there? You then realize that it was nothing more than just to invoke fear, to showcase [and] broadcast oppressions to permanency. After years of advocating and wanting to educate the community about the local history, about how it's so relevant to the present time, we really did win. We won, you know, not too long ago, with everything, [with] the sign being removed, especially that sign being removed by the very person who said, “Over my dead body.” We won. I take it, but I look at it as, “That's just one thing.” To changing this area, changing the lower Eastern Shore, I look at it as, “That's a good message.” To say, “This is a new Wicomico.”

CE: This leads to the next question I had. You did mention that this is only one of many steps. What then are your responses towards the removal—be it memorials, be it icons, any of that sort? We now see that happening more frequently. When, you know, we hear of companies either changing their titles or, you know, say that they’re no longer doing X, Y, and Z, what is your response? Do you think it's a surface level action, a necessary part that does need to happen, or the furthest extent that it can go?

AG: When I look at the larger corporations that are, you know, changing their policies or highlighting policies that they've already had, or even just going completely 180 on what they were standing before and saying—“Now I'm saying black lives matter,” i.e. the NFL—I think it's great. It's cute. However, there's a lot of work that needs to be done aside from that.

Locally, when I see those gestures being made, it means [something] different. Especially because in this area, on the Eastern Shore, everything is rural. Everything is small town—everyone knows everyone. You [personally] know business owners that may come from conservative families. They come from wealth. They come from, you know, maybe backgrounds that may not align with their progressive views now. And so, when I see those young professionals come out and, you know, say “This is wrong, this is not right”, it means a lot, especially because, you know, it was the local business community, especially the young professionals, that was that last piece that we needed to remove the Winder sign.

It kind of depends on where you are, where you're looking at it. From a corporate / large [company] scenario, it's cute. There's obviously more things that need to be done, but when you're looking at it on a real local level or grassroots level, we can meet the individual people. You can see the risks that they're taking as well as appreciate what they're doing. But there's always more to do. Especially, you know, with this sign being down. I think now we need to have conversations.

I sit on the Human Rights Advisory committee for the City of Salisbury, and we just started the city of Salisbury Lynching Memorial Task Force. We got a Confederate marker down—now it’s time to get a lynching memorial up. That would be a next step [to] educating the community. Not all markers or monuments need to be taken down. I know with the Winder sign being taken down, someone was like, “Let's get this other sign that is telling us where they bought slaves.” No, that's actually a historic marker, keep that up. We need, you know, indications of history, especially with, Black youth. We don't know where we come from. Any indication of where our ancestors were, may have been, is needed for us to find our branches to our roots. I don't think we need to take down everything. Some of them are our markers to huge findings to our own genealogy. However, if they honor or commemorate traders or people who signify white supremacy or oppression, take them down. There's no reason—that's miseducating rather than doing anything else.

CE: Wow that’s a lot. So, what I'm getting from what you shared is that there's a strong emphasis on local level work that needs to be done. That's really where the power lies of making the changes that we want to see. There was a part that you had mentioned of when you're at the local level that we're able to have the conversations necessary. How does that work? Especially right now, there's a lot of truth telling that's coming out, or the exposing of things that were hidden and now have come to light. For example, the markers and signs, some glorify the “Winders” or other icons, who are seen as powerful, strong, et cetera, but in reality, they were complicit in the harm done against Black and Native American communities. How does that work with telling the truth and having the conversations necessary to remove [them]—the blind light that someone would have over a figure and being able to have the necessary conversations to recognize this person actually was not good at all? And [that] this is not something that one should be glorifying or celebrating.

AG: Well, one thing specifically is, I think, as a society, we lack empathy. I have a four-year-old son, and I've learned that empathy, yes, it can be taught, but you really do have it as just a natural way of living. Then, as we get older, and as with adults, we just start struggling with trying to empathize with others and trying to understand. I realize when we hide history, when we aren't forthcoming of the truth, we give an easy access to not showcase empathy, to not really care. ‘Cause if we don't know, we don't have to care. What I've realized more specifically is, for example, we had the first vigil at the lynching site for Matthew Williams. It's about 10 feet away from the Winder sign. We actually had a relative of the victim that was killed. And was the reason why Matthew Williams was lynched. So, the person that Matthew Williams was accused of killing, his relative, was at the memorial, the lynching memorial.

So, one, we realize that relatives are still living. They're still breathing. They still can feel everything. When that relative showed up at that lynching site, lynching vigil, we were able to realize that they never heard the truth. They never heard from this side—they have family recollection, family stories, but they've never heard it from this side, and hearing it from this side, they were able to empathize. Not saying they feel like it was right. But you got to look from their standpoint, “This person who you guys are mourning, allegedly killed my relative. I don't know how. Yeah, it was wrong that he was lynched, but my relatives still died.” And the truth never came out. We don't know who killed his relative. Now stories [or] rumors are coming out saying that it was actually a relative. But because the truth, the stories, are not being told, people can't tap into those feelings, and [they] want to know more.

I think empathy kind of evokes curiosity, and when you have that need to want to know more, your need to kind of protect yourself, protect your feelings, the barriers, and say, “Oh, it wasn't me, I'm not racist,” kind of dies down because now you're looking at it as a human life. Because even from my standpoint, I had to look at him from empathy. ‘Cause I could have just looked at him as, “You're the reason why he's dead. Your relative is the reason why they lynched him. They lynched him in your relative's name.” I could have come like that, but I didn't, I had empathy.

His ancestor's dead. Matthew Williams is dead. No one knows why. When you think about it like that, why can't we have a conversation? We should have a conversation at that point. There's no reason to avoid it, because there was a story. I think that's how we—if we look at it from that standpoint, that's how we have those conversations. You just have to, you know, be honest with the truth, and evoke that empathy.

CE: Listening to this, I totally agree. Empathy is something that, though we all have it, is hard at times to practice. ‘Cause it's easy to be like, alright, “This happened, then automatically this—”  

AG: It’s like a motor skill we don't practice. Like, we've always learned how to write and trace. We need to train our empathy skills. We all—we all have it, but we don't, like you said, we don't practice it.

CE: And now, I’m just like, “Well, what will our world look like if we were to really emphasize empathy over advancement or empathy over other things of that sort?” That's really profound that they're always truth tellers, and those who just must listen to the truth. So, these two groups, what does it mean to move forward boldly, knowing that you have the truth to tell? And then, also, like you had said, it may mean taking the back seat of “All right, let me not try to defend my ego or things of that sort, and actually listen to what is being presented.” You mentioned empathy, but is there something else that can be practiced on either end, whether you're a truth teller or a truth listener, so that way equity can exist?

AG:  I think so. When you were explaining that you have the truth tellers and then you have the truth listeners, I don't know why, but I just started thinking about, so I'm Christian. I don't go to church all the time, but you know, I truly believe in having a relationship, truly spiritual. And I remember one of those moments where my pastor was telling me that, “Your testimony is going to help people. Your truth is going to help people. Be honest.” You know, just, “Your testimony is going to help people.” And I remember coming out of my mouth, saying, “I'm selfish. No, this is my pain. I don't want to tell anybody this. I don't want to share my testimony, because that's all I have. If I just share it out there, what's left?”

And so, I think that's what we just have to do. It doesn't matter who it is, the person telling the truth or listening, I think there is this fear of letting go of what we know. The person that is harboring the truth, there's this question of “What happens when it comes out?” And then the person that is, you know, less eager to hear the truth. They're scared of, “What happens when I get this truth. What's next?” I just think about it as, like, either way, those individuals are me when I first became a Christian, like I—this is my testimony. Especially with talking about race and talking about lynchings and talking about, you know, racial trauma and all the things that are, you know, they need to be uncovered, you know, on the lower shore. It's rooted in pain. I had to deal with a lot of hesitance from speaking about the lynchings with our own community, the Black community, especially out here. We don't like to talk about the bad. What happens in our house stays in our house, you know? Grown folks business. You don't expose the negativity to anyone, even within our own [community], which I think hinders us, because as a people, we're storytellers. As a people, that's how we got free. We told stories. We passed on wisdom. If you think about our ancestral roots, we are people who shared truth.

And so, I think even amongst ourselves, as a Black community, we're scared to tell the truth, and we're scared to hear the truth, because it's hard. And I think from a human race standpoint, doesn't matter which side they’re on, we’re just scared of what's next. I think the way to approach that is just that it has to happen, you know, scare money don't make money. You gotta, you gotta do it. But once you acknowledge that it's fear, I think it's easy to move past it. ‘Cause then that person is going to be like, “I ain’t scared. What I'm scared of? Scared of the truth? I'll say the truth if I want to.”

CE: It all makes sense. Empathize and listen. We're going to be able to tell the truth and not have fear. I want to ask you personally, in your work that you've done—because, like you shared from the beginning, you have a whole breadth of experience in this field—whether you are just beginning to be in the work or you've been in here for many years, there can be times where the work is exhausting. How do you navigate your power, your super power of telling the truth in a way that still preserves you, but then also gets the work done, and navigating that whole balance between the two?

AG: I think one of the most important lessons that I learned, and I don't think it was really hard for me to learn this lesson, I kind of went into this work wanting to do and focus on the strategy of, “I can't do this on my own. There is no such thing as the one savior, the one leader.” I think when I look at the leaders or the activists before me, I think of, you know, James Baldwin, I think of Malcolm X and Martin Luther King in a way, and they also had people to lean on. Like, they may be the face, the voice, but if there was a specific thing that they needed to work on, or someone was calling on the floor, they will call on someone else.

And I think what helps me is I can lean on other leaders and I can identify the leadership qualities in other people. ‘Cause I'll be the first one to say, “I don't want to go up and speak. So make sure you know your stuff. You can go up to speak, and I can put you on the spot, because I don't want to.” That has been my next natural way of movement, is just identify leadership qualities and people who did not even know that they had them in themselves, and then, you know, supporting them in that—you know, supporting them and providing them the space to be leaders.

And I think that's what the generation before us messed up at. I think they got the leadership positions, they held on to the torch, and they wanted to hold on as long as they could. Me, I finally have accepted the fact that I have it and I'm like, “All right, who's next? I don't want it. Like, who wants to, who wants the torch next?” To answer the question, I think, you know, leaning on other people and not trying to take on the entire loop by yourself is key. Because what will happen is, you'll start to look at all the issues, look at all the social issues and all the problems, and you realize that it's not just one problem. It's a domino effect of so many, and when you try to fix one thing you realize, “Well, dang, I can't fix this because this is broken.” It gets so overwhelming, and it gets so discouraging. It's what I tell youth, this is what I tell a lot of young activists is, you know, “ripples to waves.”

And like I said, I learned that from my pastor. I can't remember what sermon it was, but it was good, ‘cause I remembered it. You know, when you stick your finger in a pond or in a river, you see the streams, and then it starts off smaller, and then it gets out bigger. You know, ripples turn into waves. And I think, you know, if we work on small chunks, if we do small actions, that can be a ripple effect to impacting larger things. And I'm seeing it, you know, with me doing my own ripples and seeing the huge waves that are coming after it. I'm just a little skinny chick from D.C. who moved out near the beach. Like, I’m really nobody, but I’ve been doing little ripples creating major waves. And I think if more people, you know, just leaned on others and realize that you don't have to fix the entire world…My dad calls me a missionary. We don't have to be a missionary, but you can have those missionary values. You don't got to save everybody.

CE: And that's so powerful, and whoever your pastor is, just let them know that that was just a lot of great points they made.

AG: Ripples to waves. It's something that I think has become a personal motto of mine, as well as just something that I just keep, you know, pressing into young activists, even young adults when they come new into this, especially with the climate and everything that's going on now. You know, a lot of kids, a lot of young people, this is their first time that they've ever cared about anything that didn't have to do with what was on their table or what they were wearing, or, you know, something that was just focused on their individual selves. It's exciting, but I also know that if you don't catch onto that quick, it's going to be gone. November is right around the corner. We need people to vote. We need everybody to just realize there are possible ways to achieve the goal of, you know, equality and liberation, especially in liberation.

CE: Yes. And that's a whole other conversation on liberation. We can't do this by ourselves, and this is a shared work. So, as you've done your work here now in D.C., Salisbury, and then also with your project, The Fenix Youth project, what have been some of your greatest joys that you have had along the way? Be it the empowerment or the advice you’ve shared or things that just have stayed permanently in your mind till today?

AG: The most powerful thing that I think I've experienced with all the work that I've been doing is just seeing the growth in myself. I think it takes a lot to say, because when I first started in this field of activism and community organizing, I was naive at first. I was also very, you know, as any other young 21, 22-year-old, I was very arrogant in the ways that I wanted things done. Not so much arrogant as far as not wanting to listen to others or respect, you know, others’ opinions, but just, I knew that I wanted change, and I wasn't going to take no for an answer. With having that, I wanted to see this outcome of change. I wanted to see a new Wicomico, a new Salisbury, and not letting go.

I've grown substantially. As a business professional, I think I have to remind myself that even though this is a nonprofit, I am running a business, I'm a business owner, I'm a Black-owned business. Not only that, over the years, the youth that I've impacted, the youth that I've come across, they look at me as a role model. As leaders, as people, I had someone call me their spirit guide the other day. I was like, “Whoa, but I get what you mean. You look to me,” and that took a lot for me to accept, because I'm not even 30 yet. Like, I still feel like I have this young zeal, like I still want to be out there. I still want a role model. Like, I want to be me, and I had a growth of accepting that I am a role model. I’m accepting and welcoming that role, but also realizing that as a role model, I still have room to grow. I don't have to be perfect.

The key to that working now is just being transparent. My growth is shown in my transparency. Like, I'm transparent about my mental health. I'm transparent about my financials. I’m just so transparent, because I need youth to realize that, yeah, it looks like I got it, but I don't. Like, “I'm just like you. We’re just the same.” Youth and adult partnerships don't work unless we're relatable. The growth that I've, you know, had as a leader, has been the most powerful thing for me, because I know that the growth within me is going to have a lasting effect on my son and other youth, and just a lot of the work that I'm doing. I don't feel bad for saying I'm excited for me, like, go me! Because when I get me right, everything behind me is going to be right. And that realization, that growth, is so amazing. It's so powerful. And I want everybody to have it, because it's so dope.

CE: This is infectious. Now I'm hype.

Amber: Yeah. I mean, you have to get hype. You have to. I mean, just realizing like, to be excited in your own flaws, to be excited, and to know that you're growing, and the effects of what's going to  happen if you grow is exciting. And also, to know that it's also a warning, because if you don't grow, what's the effect? Having that realization of growth, of maturity, is so important on any front, because whether you look at it as if you're growing, if you're not growing, you still come to the realization [of] “What's the aftermath if I don't?” So I think, you know, me coming to [terms] with accepting the fact that I'm a role model, and I'm also, you know, [thinking,] “Don't trip. He ain’t through me yet.”

CE: What would you then say to the younger version of yourself, let's say, that 20, 21- to 23-year-old, for example? What would you say to her from what you've learned right now, at your stage, that she can take with her on her route of being in the work for justice? Be it advice, encouragement or even warnings?

AG: I would say, you are exactly where you need to be. That would be my advice, especially just knowing what I struggled with, in the coming of age of growing up as a leader. I always struggled with whether this was my place, even physically or spiritually, if this was where I was supposed to be or do. I questioned that way too much, and when I stopped, things changed. And so, that would be my advice to my younger self, is that you're right where you're supposed to be. Probably would've saved me a lot of, you know, cookie dough ice cream.